Below please find several questions based on the excerpt that we read from Please Kill Me: The Uncensored Oral History of Punk by Legs McNeil and Gillian McCain. These were written by Jacqueline Brettschneider.
This reading is unlike most of the readings assigned to this class, and I highly recommend that you guys read it. It tells of how Punk got started by the people who basically brought it to life. Not only was Punk a new type of music, but it was also a new type of attitude and way of life.
- How was this “new thing” called Punk different from Rock and Roll, and all music in general, at this time? Why did it young people relate to it? Why did Punk start in New York City and what is it about New York City in the 1970s that allowed this Punk movement to start?
- What was the behavior and mindset like of young people from New York City at this time, and why would they embrace this punk movement? How and why did Legs McNeil and people like him from New York City connect to the Ramones?
- What is Punk according to the reading? What does it mean to you? Many people say that Punk is dead today in New York City and all over the United States and bands who call themselves Punk are actually “sellouts.” Do you think Punk is dead in New York City? Why or why not?
History of New York City 
What is Punk according to the reading? What does it mean to you? Many people say that Punk is dead today in New York City and all over the United States and bands who call themselves Punk are actually “sellouts.” Do you think Punk is dead in New York City? Why or why not?
According to the reading, I was able to come with the conclusion that the punk era was a time of rebellion and roofless behavior. People had this I don’t ” give a s*@t attitude about life and the world around them. It became the norm to do drugs and get high or drunk or sleeping around without the fears of disease or vandalize and have destructive behavior. Punk to me is a movement.. It’s a time when being young was synonymous with parental rules and structure. The ideology of punk was a time to let go and break all those rules. Having a free spirit without any limitations, but not cautious of the consequences that may transpire. I wasn’t a listener of punk, but I knew that it focused on a very fast pace tempo that may sound fun,yet a little demonic in tone. When I look at the groups of today, thay may add undertones from the punk and rock eras, but I find that there is no originality but replication. Many of them don’t get the essence of what the punk era represented and what the groups of that time was trying to convey. They have the music and maybe the sounds,but not the essence. I wouldn’t call them sell -outs but ignorant to the knowledge that punk brings.. It was a time of rebellion, but I believe people were smarter than the generation of today. As far as punk of today, I am out of the loop when it comes to certain genres, but from what I am able to see, the theme behind what punk represents is in all forms of music such as pop,rap and rock.
What is Punk according to the reading? What does it mean to you? Many people say that Punk is dead today in New York City and all over the United States and bands who call themselves Punk are actually “sellouts.” Do you think Punk is dead in New York City? Why or why not?
According to the reading Punk was a way for underprivileged white kids living in and around the city to rebel against the 1950’s stark nuclear family values and the 1960’s free love and peace attitude. Punk was a way for these kids coops up to lash out at a society that didn’t recognize them, that gave them no credit and little opportunity. Punk was a poor white kid movement that erupted from feelings of worthlessness. Not only that they were worthless, but that life itself was worthless. These kids watched their families bicker over money, got beat up at school for being weird, and had little to look up to. Punk was a direct attack on the Hippie culture. Hippies said, “take it easy” and the punks said “no fucking way.” People were pissed at the world around them. With the city falling apart, no jobs to be had, and everyone trying to get a word in edgewise as to how they should live their lives. Punk was the opportunity to say screw that shit I’m going to do my own thing. Acts like Television and the Talking Heads were the first to push the edges of music. It wasn’t rock n roll, it wasn’t folk music, and it certainly wasn’t disco. Acts like MC5 and The Stooges pushed the edges further. It was like rock n roll but it had a stronger more in your face attitude. Little by little young kids realized they didn’t need lessons, they could just pick up an instrument and figure it out along the way. The DIY [do it yourself] attitude was and IS punk, now and forever. Punk isn’t dead, it’s just not what it used to be. Punk over the years has had many waves for example the type of Punk coming from L.A. was its own style compared to NYC. Hardcore that erupted in D.C. was its own take on Punk. Girl bands that pushed the Riot Grrrl movement to the headlines was its own take on punk. There is D-Beat punk, Anarcho Punk, Crust Punk, Skate Punk, Noise Punk, Raw Punk, Queer and Homocore Punk, and all types and shades in between. The difference between being a punk and a sell out is having a major record deal and not putting forth any effort in trying to create something meaningful. Your band got a deal from a major car company? That’s cool, but it is not punk. You sell out stadiums? That’s cool, but it is not punk. Punk music is in your face full on aggressive war fare between you and the listener. It’s got to make people move, it’s got to make people think and it’s gotta be accessible. You do it for the love not for the money. Start a band, make a demo, sell it for 3 bucks, go on tour, make friends, talk about how shit life is, break some windows and some hearts. Punk is not dead in NYC. It has been appropriated by the fashion industry, but that doesn’t mean it is dead. NYC isn’t putting out much UK82 or 77 street punk music these days, but there is a huge resurgence in D-beat and Raw punk like Dawn of Humans, Crazy Spirit, Perdition, Sad Boys and so on. Also more dark wave death rock style punk from the west coast has been influencing bands like Anasazi who put on a show you can’t even believe. The best part about NYC punk rock is barely the bands that make it up. Because NYC is such a famous place we get bands scrambling to come here and play shows. We’ve got a solid group of bookers who put on outrageous tours to please the kiddies. Insane artists like Heather Benjamin and others whose names I cant remember who puts out comic zines and make crazy elaborate flyers that keep the big wheel of punk turning. It comes in all shapes and sizes. All colors and styles. The basics of punk are this: play it loud and play it fast. And when someone falls down in the pit, pick them up.
Actually, while hippie culture and punk culture do not walk hand in hand through the sociological diaspora, they do have a lot in common. They are both reactions to the indifference of the power structure to their personal angst and drama. In the first case it was the Eisenhower era while in the second case it was the Reagan era. While there were many other issues that gave individuality to these two reactive movements, they did share that common bond of having membership in a private club (the white world) that did not recognize their voting rights. They had no voice. I drank at three incarnations of the bar that became CBGB’s (the original Palace Bar, Hilly’s and CBGB’s) and lived in a rooming house at 3 East 3rd Street that was in spitting distance. I came outside one day to find Patti Smith standing in the street with another female (I don’t know who she was) trying to hail a cab in the rain. Robert Maplethorpe as well as the Ramones frequently made their presence felt. I drank at Phoebe’s bar on the corner of 4th street and the Bowery where punk rockers as well as, John Lennon, were habitues. There was a shared sensibility and respect between the outlaws of both generations. To say that Punk was a reaction against hippie culture is wrong. Both tropes were ‘white’ to the core and both reacted against the indifference of the age to their plights.
The “white flight” of the sixties settled former urban families into freshly created suburbs that were a seemingly “perfect” environment for raising children. The parents experienced a new way of life much different from the sights, sounds, and experiences from the decaying cities and it did represent a radical and satisfying change; a step up in living. Their children however did not have comparative experience of living in the city to generate any sense that this was better or worse than anything else. It was simply life in the suburbs and they loved it and accepted it or despised it and rebelled against it. It wasn’t a rebellion with demands or goals. It was a rebellion against society. Like the James Dean movie these were rebels without out a cause. These were people that felt outside of society or who were left outside of society.
Suburban “society” at the time was fractured, categorized and segregated in a way that it wasn’t in the 1950’s or 1960’s. The late 1970’s were my high school years. There were distinct communities in the high schools: jocks, fratboys and sorority girls, greasers, nerds, and then those on the fringes. I was in the latter group. One could argue that all teenagers feel alienated at one time or another, but this was separation. There was an attitude that accompanied the separation. There was no desire to fit in and instead an alternative was created. Music was at the center of it and The Ramones and Patti Smith were at the center of that music. The Ramones, from Forest Hills, Queens, were a blaring band, unlike anything heard before. One could go see them play in a club and their whole entire set would be done in twenty or thirty minutes. They brought a distinct style to music and to high schools. Suddenly there were a handful of kids wearing black leather jackets, skinny jeans, and Keds sneakers. While The Ramones represented Punk Rock’s abandonment of society, Patti Smith was the outspoken rebel. Alternately referred to as the Punk Priestess and Punk Poet she reinvigorated music with language that was intelligent, every word masterfully applied, and an unmatched passion.
Punk made the music of “corporate” bands meaningless and unimportant. Who wanted to listen to Foreigner or Fleetwood Mac, when this vital, energetic representation of teenage angst was available? In my group of friends we already had separated ourselves from everyone else. We drank and did drugs. We drove around in a long black Cadillac Brougham that would speed out of the student parking lot, wheels screeching, during fourth period every day, until one day the principal had the school tractor parked in front the car to prevent it from moving. We were in total rebellion, Rock and Roll High School. We simply did not care and, while teachers and students looked at us and thought we were alien, we had become a tight knit group of teenagers that simply laughed at them.
As we talked about these music “scenes” in class, i.e. hip-hop, punk, and disco, none of these scenes will ever be recreated. It was done in an era without internet and was largely underground in the sense that one had to seek it out. It happened in New York, because, in the ungovernable city, people could experiment, people could congregate, and, as long as it too place off of the street and behind closed doors, the police didn’t care. These days the police and the state want to control everything and regulate every aspect of our lives, which is likely more apparent to people that grew up before the advent of home computers. The interesting thing with the original Punk music as well as original Hip-Hop and Disco is the fact that, for the most part, it holds up incredible well today. It was reactionary music and the object of the reaction still exists.
Sample tracks from the back seat of the Cadillac Brougham:
Patti Smith, “Babelogue / Rock and Roll Nigger”
The Clash, “Clampdown”
The Ramones, “Rock ‘N’ Roll High School”
Joan Jett, “Bad Reputation”
Richard Hell and the Voidoids
I have to be the voice of dissent on this one. Not to offend, and fully aware that taste is subjective-I’ve never been a fan of Punk.I grew up as a younger brother to a Woodstock era older brother/musician in a family of eclectic musical tastes. I say this because my musical tastes were pretty firmly cemented before Punk hit the scene and I was unmoved and unimpressed when it did. My tastes had gone from the love of an electric jazz guitar from my dad and the acid jams of the Grateful Dead from my brother (by age 8) to blues and classical at age 12 and was fully immersed in 50’s and 60’s modern jazz (by age 15) when the Ramones,Blondie and Talking Heads were starting to get popular. I was good friends with a bouncer at Max’s Kansas City and was in on the scene-but looked down on it as a bunch of angry kids that don’t even know what they’re angry about- and how dare they call themselves musicians just because they know three chords and look heroin chic. Beethoven, Miles Davis and Hendrix died for their sins and they don’t want to be bothered learning their instruments? Aaaaaagh!!!!
I’ve mellowed over the years but that is still at the heart of my reaction to ‘Punk’ and ironically-I’m well aware that the proponents of Punk couldn’t be happier about my apathy-I’m sure they’re apathetic about me being apathetic.
I agree with Roderick that the similarities between rock and punk are larger than they appear at first glance- we can remember the ‘flower in your hair’ era and see it as 180 degrees removed from the razor blade as an earring era- but to really compare apples to apples we have to differentiate from the groundbreaking revolutionaries that started a new phase from the copy cats or general public that gets swept up in the image and fashion of an established phase.
The revolutionaries of 60’s rock were rebelling against the straight laced white bread ethos of the late 50’s early 60’s. They were rebelling against L.B.J.- who at the time was seen as a war monger not as a master politician and liberal. In reality the drunk and drugged stars of the late 50’s early 60’s whether Johnny Cash or Jerry Lee Lewis weren’t really as straight laced as Look magazine or Madison avenue would have wanted us to believe. Musically -they were repackaging the black sound of the South.
In life style- experimental and alternative meant drugged-LSD mescaline and pot.
The revolutionaries of Punk were rebelling against the straight laced white bread ethos of the disco era – the drug was heroin , the black leather was right off of Marlon Brando’s back…the rebellion of youth is a timeless thing.
There is a line in Biloxi Blues- the Neil Simon play/movie about a sensitive youth in army basic training-where the question is pondered -‘why if the army was so hellish do all men remember it so fondly?’- the answer being-‘because we were young!’. I think that is the link. The rebellion of youth is characterized by styles that the middle class hates, by music it can’t stand, by the “this is me and I don’t give a damn what you think” attitude-and in that regard who was ever more of a punk than Keith Moon the deceased drummer of the 60’s rock band the Who-the quintessential I’m drunk and I’ll piss on your foot ’cause I don’t care.
As for why New York- it was the messy bedroom of the modern era-the kids playground the availability of space, drugs, iconic black and white back drop and the immense suburbs to feed the immense boredom fueling a rebel scream.
I look forward to the next reincarnation of musical teen age anxt-while being a musical snob-I just hope that this next generation studies at Juliard (or online) before turning up the volume.
With punk, there is a sense of disillusionment with the 1960s rock movement (pg 203). Punk is the antithesis of the corporate machine that churns out rock artists. While rock is mainstream, punk inhabits the fringes of popular culture with its fast riffs and hardcore sound. What really stands out to me is the DIY culture. Because, no one else was creating what they wanted to hear, the punks were creating it themselves – whether it was creating their own style, their own magazines, or their music. For example, when the Ramones couldn’t afford their own drum set, one member asked his mother for the money; there was no record label to fund them. They found their own avenues for exposure. There seems to be a real resurgence of the print culture, with punks creating their own magazines, so their message could spread to other people who felt that mainstream print was not touching upon the issues that really moved them. Their was a community atmosphere, where everyone seemed to know each other, and even when they didn’t, they felt comfortable enough to go up and introduce themselves, as did Legs with Lou Reed. Punk was not about spreading a political message, like rock did during the Vietnam War; but it was about embracing the decay of the city, and using it as a catalyst for personal freedom and doing whatever one wanted to do. There was a true sense of lawlessness.
What was the mindset like of young people from New York City at this time? Why did the young people relate to it? Why did punk start New York City and what was it about New York that allowed the movement to start?
Punk in New York was a way for the youth to describe themselves. It was a way of setting themselves free from everything that was around them. Also the style of music was really different and fast, exciting and new that no one has really heard before. The Ramones was one of the bands that were really different and initiated the movement of punk in New York City. They often played in locations like CBCB’S which was really popular in this movement. The dictators where another band who also incorporated the sound of Punk in New York. New York was the best place because it was so diverse so many people, and this city was alive with many personalities that allowed for this culture to flourish. Punk was a different sound where young people were ingulfed in drugs and drinking and not giving two cares of the world.
What is Punk according to the reading? What does it mean to you? Many people say that Punk is dead today in New York City and all over the United States and bands who call themselves Punk are actually “sellouts.” Do you think Punk is dead in New York City? Why or why not
Punk means to me a way of expressing yourself thats not of the norm. Alot of people go through many things and situation and often music is the way that one can relieve themselves from their daily stress. Punk during that time in my opinion was just that. It was a way of rebellion against society in a non political way like hip hop or rap did vocally. It was a way that one could express themselves, get drunk and high in the music and literally not care about anything. I think during that time many young people were trying to find a way of expressing themselves, and punk was such above not the norm that it did just that. I think punk might not all the way be dead in New York although some people might still listen to it, its more popularized with different artists of today. But I must say the sound of punk is different from the way that it was in the past, people actually listened to punk to escape, now punk is watered down with pop sounding music and its really commercialized to make it sound good for the public.
In response to the first question…
The emergence of punk came about and immediately the genre was in a world of its own compared to other contemporary music. The only similarity punk had with rock and roll and other genres was that it used instruments. Everything else was uniques to punk, good or bad. Punk was a movement which developed in the white middle class as rebellious teens look for something else to give them their fix. As far as punk was concerned, rock and roll had become far too bloated and pretentious. There were a few hugely famous bands that had enormous followings and punk dared to rise up against this conformity. Punk gave an identity to a group which was struggling with just that. New York was the perfect place for the movement to start in the 1970’s. There was a sense of abandonment throughout the city, as said in the Ramones documentary, “The parents left the kids home alone” (or something along those lines). A forgotten about group in a forgotten about city, set the stage for the punk movement. It combined a sound and energy that music had not yet seen. And love it or hate it, it took the city by storm and created a whole new subculture.
What is Punk according to the reading?What does it mean to you? Many people say that Punk is dead today in New York City and all over the United States and bands who call themselves Punk are actually “sellouts.” Do you think Punk is dead in New York City? Why or why not?
When I think of Punk i identify it with expressing yourself, lashing out, rebellious rebel and not caring what anyone thinks of you. Is Punk dead in NYC absolutely not. I admit would that many people do not know the true meaning of Punk rock i mean they listen to Averil Levine and think “this is it” Punk Rock is hard-edged music, typically with short songs, stripped-down instrumentation, and often political, anti-establishment lyrics.